Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/09/2000 09:03 AM Senate FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
SENATE BILL NO. 6                                                                                                               
"An Act relating to the disposal of state land."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
This was the seventh hearing for this bill in the Senate                                                                        
Finance Committee. At the previous meeting a committee                                                                          
substitute, 1-LS0071\S was adopted as a workdraft.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson reminded the members that there had been                                                                     
some concerns from the Department of Natural Resources about                                                                    
the committee substitute. As a result of meetings his staff                                                                     
had with members of the department, Co-Chair Torgerson said                                                                     
a new committee substitute was drafted.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell moved to adopt CS SB 6, 1-LS0071\W as a                                                                        
workdraft.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams objected to request a brief comparison between                                                                    
the two versions.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson explained the changes in Version "W" as                                                                      
follows.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Section 1 Finding and Intent - page 2 line 3 inserted                                                                           
"from the land disposal bank" in reference to the                                                                               
75,000 acres and also inserted "as soon as practicable                                                                          
after the effective date of this Act"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Section 2 - inserted language specifying that the                                                                               
member of the land disposal advisory committee would                                                                            
not be compensated, expect for per diem and travel                                                                              
expenses. Also inserted, was language requiring the                                                                             
committee to submit a report directly to the                                                                                    
legislature rather than through the commissioner.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Section 8 and Section 9 - allows the department to sell                                                                         
land for a down payment of five percent up to 25                                                                                
percent                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson noted that currently the statutes                                                                            
restricted the program to allow only a five-percent down                                                                        
payment.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Section 8 - refers to land sold at auction                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Section 9 - refers to land sold by lottery                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Section 10 - allows the department to sell land that                                                                            
has been foreclosed on to the first eligible buyer                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Section 11 - clean-up measure, similar to Section 10,                                                                           
which will make it easier for the department to resell                                                                          
land                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Section 12 - relates to the appraisal and surveys and                                                                           
replaces "may" with "shall"                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Section 8 of Version "S" - contained provisions of                                                                              
statutes that did not apply to the land disposal bank                                                                           
and were deleted                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams asked about the relationship between this bill                                                                    
and SB 287, which appropriates funds for the land disposal                                                                      
program. He noted that in previous discussions, it was                                                                          
thought that future program receipts would be used to                                                                           
operate the program rather than the Constitutional Budget                                                                       
Reserve (CBR).                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson explained his intent had always been to                                                                      
fund the program with an appropriation. He stated that he                                                                       
had requested a fiscal note from the department to show how                                                                     
the appropriation would be spent over the next few years in                                                                     
addition to showing projected revenues. He relayed that                                                                         
there was the possibility the program would eventually be                                                                       
funded through program receipts. He stressed that in order                                                                      
to sell land "we have to front-end load the money" for                                                                          
surveys, plotting, public hearings and other expenses that                                                                      
add up to approximately $250 per acre.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson advised that SB 287 would provide for a                                                                      
one-time draw from the CBR to cover the initial costs of the                                                                    
land disposal program.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green referred to discussion from the previous year                                                                     
on SB 6 regarding Section 12, payment of appraisals, etc.                                                                       
She did not think this was typical real estate procedure for                                                                    
the buyer to pay for the appraisal and other costs.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson responded that the discussion took place                                                                     
during the last hearing and that Version "S" contained the                                                                      
word "may", which was changed to "shall" in the proposed                                                                        
committee substitute Version "W". He noted the main reason                                                                      
was to keep the fiscal note cost down.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green agreed with the premise but suggested that                                                                        
"shall" should be considered for removal at a future date.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson remarked that the Committee would hear                                                                       
testimony on this matter later in the meeting.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams removed his objection qualifying that he still                                                                    
had concerns with Section 2, the land disposal advisory                                                                         
committee, asking about the procedure in the case of a tie                                                                      
vote, and Section 4 that allows the legislature to                                                                              
reclassify of parcels. He suggested this could create micro-                                                                    
management by the legislature. His final concern was with                                                                       
the funding source. He referred to the FY 00 supplemental                                                                       
operating budget appropriation, SB 250 that reported from                                                                       
the Committee the day before.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Without objection, Version "W" was adopted as a working                                                                         
draft.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR commented there were no changes made in                                                                    
Version "W" that he could not support.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor addressed Senator Green's concerns, saying he                                                                    
understood them but because of certain court decisions,                                                                         
there was no way state land could be conveyed without a fair                                                                    
market evaluation. His remarked that he would desire for the                                                                    
legislature to simply set one price per acre and that                                                                           
anything above that amount would be fair market value but he                                                                    
did not think that was possible.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson relayed Senator Adams's concerns about                                                                       
the advisory committee and legislative intervention.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor responded that the committee was just an                                                                         
advisory committee and that the commissioner would make the                                                                     
final decision. He noted that the original legislation                                                                          
provided that the committee made those determinations, but                                                                      
that because of a conflict with the some Supreme Court                                                                          
decisions regarding improper delegation of legislative                                                                          
prerogative, the provision had to be changed.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson added that the current language was the                                                                      
same as that for the Minerals Management Commission.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams clarified for the record that the commissioner                                                                    
had the final say regarding land disposal.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor affirmed.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams spoke to his other concern about micro-                                                                           
management by the legislature.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor responded that the legislature never gives up                                                                    
its right to change the classification. By inserting the                                                                        
language into this bill, he said it prevents the legislature                                                                    
from needing to adopt additional legislation later.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams then asked if the sponsor supported the use of                                                                    
the CBR versus a program receipt concept to fund the                                                                            
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor understood the budget difficulties and                                                                           
appreciated any funding mechanism to get the program                                                                            
started. He surmised that the program would become self-                                                                        
funded after the first year.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BOB LOEFFLER, Director, Division of Mining, Land and Water,                                                                     
Department of Natural Resources testified to the                                                                                
department's major concern with the required minimum of                                                                         
75,000 acres. Because the funds necessary to sell the land                                                                      
were appropriated separately by the legislature, he                                                                             
classified this bill as an unfunded mandate.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell asked that if the appropriation bill, SB
287 passes if SB 6 remains an unfunded mandate.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler replied that it does and explained that only                                                                       
the first 75,000 acres would be funded by the appropriation,                                                                    
while the bill requires that number of acres offered for                                                                        
sale each year.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell countered that as part of a typical                                                                            
operating budget item, the program would be funded annually                                                                     
and become part of the department's "base".                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler did not understand that this program would                                                                         
become part of the base or even a yearly increment.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell stated that the department could certainly                                                                     
request funding each year knowing that the statutes were in                                                                     
place. He asked how much money the program would need to get                                                                    
through the next year.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler explained the time frame involved in getting                                                                       
land sold and the need to spend money in advance of the land                                                                    
sales. In FY 02, he said the department would need another                                                                      
$3.8 million, FY 03 would require $5.3 million, etc. He                                                                         
stated that the program would generate a positive cash flow                                                                     
beginning in FY 04 but that the income would not be enough                                                                      
to pay back the earlier expenses until FY 09.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell pointed out that the fiscal note provides                                                                      
enough money to run the program through FY 01.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler stressed that the $9 million appropriation                                                                         
would pay the costs of the first 75,000 acres. He again                                                                         
explained the time frame as broken into three categories:                                                                       
50,000 acres of potential reoffers, 20,000 acres of remote                                                                      
sales, and 5,000 acres of subdivisions. Because of the lag                                                                      
time, he warned that the subdivisions would not be salable                                                                      
until FY 03 and the remote sales and reoffers would be split                                                                    
between FY 02 and FY 03. Therefore, he stated that what                                                                         
would be sold in FY 01 would be land that was prepared for                                                                      
sale using funding provided in FY 00.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green asked about the one-year and two-year                                                                             
lifetimes of surveys and appraisals.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler explained that most of the remote parcels would                                                                    
not require appraisals. However, he stated the title search,                                                                    
land classifications, etc. could not be completed by the                                                                        
summer and therefore surveys would not get done until the                                                                       
next summer. He noted that the summer was the ideal time to                                                                     
sell land because buyers have the ability to examine the                                                                        
land.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green asked why the survey would add an additional                                                                      
year to the sale process instead of only an additional week                                                                     
or month.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler repeated that the survey would not be completed                                                                    
until next summer. The reason for the delay in the reoffers,                                                                    
he added was because of the time required for a title                                                                           
search.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green asked if those easier parcels could be sold                                                                       
earlier.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler responded that the department would try.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson asked what would happen to the program if                                                                    
it were not funded.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler answered that if the program was not funded the                                                                    
land would not be disbursed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson wanted the department to come before the                                                                     
Committee the next year to defend the budget and to explain                                                                     
the progress before receiving additional funding. He                                                                            
stressed that all but a very few state programs are subject                                                                     
to appropriation.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken referred to page three lines 16 and 17 that                                                                      
provided that the land may not be disposed of for less than                                                                     
fair market value, and page four, line 12 that dictated a                                                                       
process for auction or lottery at a 70 percent rate of the                                                                      
fair market value. He asked if there was not a conflict. He                                                                     
questioned the statute that in one section, stated that the                                                                     
land could not be sold below value, yet in another section,                                                                     
stipulated land could be sold up to 30 percent less if the                                                                      
director so chooses.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler responded that in either case, the land would                                                                      
be sold at auction or lottery. If land was not sold, he                                                                         
explained that the commissioner would then have the                                                                             
authority to lower the price to no less than 70 percent of                                                                      
fair market value. He stated this provision has been in                                                                         
statute for several years.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken then addressed page four, line 21, "bidder                                                                       
shall deposit an amount specified by the director, equal to                                                                     
at least five percent" and questioned whether five percent                                                                      
was too low of a down payment. He felt this amount did not                                                                      
indicate a commitment on the part of the purchaser that the                                                                     
land would be purchased and improved. He thought this might                                                                     
instead encourage people to simply buy and hold land.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson commented that he understood that the                                                                        
department was limited to the five-percent amount. However,                                                                     
he wanted to allow some leeway so the remote parcels could                                                                      
be sold. He qualified that he did expect the down payment                                                                       
would be raised up to the maximum amount of 25 percent for                                                                      
some of the more sought after properties.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler affirmed and allowed that the default rate on                                                                      
the land sales was higher when buyers only had five percent                                                                     
invested in the property, which caused greater expense in                                                                       
the future to the department. He then pointed out the fiscal                                                                    
note's projected income if the required down payment raised                                                                     
significantly above five percent. He expected between five                                                                      
and 25 percent down payments would be required.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson noted that for some more desirable areas,                                                                    
the minimum down payment requirement could be increased, but                                                                    
that in other remote areas, it could be difficult to sell                                                                       
the land even with a down payment as low as five percent.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler generalized the fiscal note was expensive in                                                                       
requesting $18 million over the next five years in addition                                                                     
to the $9 million for this year. However, he thought it                                                                         
represents a new way of doing business and that the costs of                                                                    
land distribution would be significantly less than in the                                                                       
past.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler pointed out the detailed financial back up                                                                         
accompanying the fiscal note that gave certain cost                                                                             
assumptions and certain sale assumptions. [Copy on file] He                                                                     
repeated that the revenues will exceed expenditures in FY 04                                                                    
and the revenues will pay back all previous expenditures in                                                                     
FY 09.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson returned to Senator Wilken's concern                                                                         
about the conflict relating to the fair market value                                                                            
requirement. He relayed earlier conversations with the                                                                          
witness were it was established that fair market value was                                                                      
set during an auction by the bids made.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler explained the sealed bid process with the                                                                          
department setting a minimum bid at the fair market value.                                                                      
He said the bids often are submitted at a much higher                                                                           
amount. He added that the pricing schemes are established in                                                                    
AS 38.05.055 for auctions and AS 38.050.057 for lotteries.                                                                      
He suggested that the new section on page three lines 16 and                                                                    
17 in the bill could conflict with the existing statute as                                                                      
Senator Wilken pointed out.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson clarified that the provisions relating to                                                                    
fair market value on page three of the bill only applied to                                                                     
that section.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler responded that if the assumption that the fair                                                                     
market language only applied to that section were true, then                                                                    
there was no conflict.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler addressed the idea of offering land not                                                                            
originally sold at auction for sale on the Internet through                                                                     
a sealed bidding process. He stated that if the land was not                                                                    
sold in one auction, chances were low that it would be sold                                                                     
at a second auction with the same minimum bid requirement.                                                                      
He said that if land were not sold, the department would                                                                        
just hold it until a buyer approached the department with an                                                                    
offer. That was permitted under the auction and lottery                                                                         
portion of statute.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson stated that the intent of the sponsor was                                                                    
to make land available over the Internet and to give                                                                            
authority to the department to do so.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler was not opposed to offering land for sale on                                                                       
the Internet.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson asked if the department was currently                                                                        
required to sell land at fair market value.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler answered yes.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson then asked if the 70 percent provision                                                                       
was the existing language.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler explained it was and that it was an exception                                                                      
to the general stipulation that at least fair market value                                                                      
be applied.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken asserted that the two provisions needed to                                                                       
comply with each other.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DICK MYLIUS, Resource Assessment and Development, Division                                                                      
of Mining, Land and Water, Department of Natural Resources                                                                      
testified via teleconference from Anchorage to clarify that                                                                     
the 70 percent provision was part of existing statute that                                                                      
allows the director to sell at less than fair market value.                                                                     
He continued this provision applies in cases where the                                                                          
director determines that there is a shortage of land, which                                                                     
causes an artificially inflated value.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson asked if the language was important to                                                                       
leave in statute.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mylius spoke of the pros and cons saying he did not know                                                                    
if the language was in conflict but that he also did not                                                                        
know why it should be retained.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken wanted to change either the language on page                                                                     
three or page four.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Amendment #3: This is a conceptual amendment to delete the                                                                      
language on page four lines 12 and 13 in Section 8 of the                                                                       
bill that allows the director to sell state land for                                                                            
anything less than the appraised fair market value. The                                                                         
amendment deletes, "no less than 70 percent of" making the                                                                      
sentence read, "The director may accept bids and sell state                                                                     
land under this section at the appraised fair market value                                                                      
of the land."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken moved for adoption.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler suggested amending similar language that                                                                           
applied to the lottery statute.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken amended his amendment to also delete, "The                                                                       
purchase price of the land sold by lottery shall be the fair                                                                    
market value of the land as determined by the commissioner.                                                                     
The commissioner may sell land by lottery for less than the                                                                     
fair market value of the land on a determination that                                                                           
scarcity of land for private use in the area of the land to                                                                     
be sold has resulted in unrealistic land values." from page                                                                     
four lines 27 through 34 in Section 9.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green recalled a previous land disposal bill from                                                                       
several years before and was unsure that she wanted to take                                                                     
away the ability to sell "trash land". She suggested                                                                            
revising the language that dictated "lands may not be                                                                           
disposed of under this section for less than the appraised                                                                      
fair market value." She stated that while the intent was not                                                                    
to give the land away, the state should be able to sell the                                                                     
land when possible. She then asked if fair market value was                                                                     
the amount offered by the highest bidder.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson responded it was not and that certain                                                                        
procedures were followed that included an appraisal.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams agreed with Senator Green's desire to maintain                                                                    
the ability to sell less than desirable land, saying he                                                                         
thought this amendment would hinder land disposal.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson asked if Section 9 only applied to                                                                           
agriculture land.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mylius responded that neither Section 8 or Section 9,                                                                       
the provisions to allow sales at lower than the fair market                                                                     
value, had been used in the five years he has been working                                                                      
for the department. However, he did not know if they had                                                                        
ever been instituted in the past for auction or lottery                                                                         
offerings.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken said the purpose of the bill wasn't only to                                                                      
sell land but to also have something done with the land                                                                         
whether used for recreation, agriculture, etc. He asserted                                                                      
that by lowering the "bar" and allowing land to be purchased                                                                    
for less than fair market value, "what we've really allowed                                                                     
is for people to essentially lock up the land without an                                                                        
investment in the land." He believed that as stewards of the                                                                    
people's land, the legislature should ensure that the people                                                                    
get at least the fair market value of their assets. He                                                                          
suggested that if this restriction become an impediment to                                                                      
selling land for production, the statute could be changed in                                                                    
the future.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson opposed amendment until he could be surer                                                                    
of the calculation of fair market value in relation to the                                                                      
highest bid offered at an auction. He was not convinced that                                                                    
the highest offer was or was not fair market value.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly did not think a bid made at auction                                                                            
constituted fair market value and noted that the market for                                                                     
these land sales was not broad. He supported the amendment                                                                      
saying it protects the assets of the state.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green spoke to earlier conversations regarding the                                                                      
value and authenticity of every appraisal done. She thought                                                                     
that the bid process was the actuality of the value of the                                                                      
property even if the state wants to think the value is much                                                                     
higher. For this and other reasons, she said she would not                                                                      
support the amendment.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson considered borough foreclosures on                                                                           
property to restitute delinquent taxes noting that these                                                                        
properties were sold for the highest price offered rather                                                                       
than an appraised value. While he understood that minimum                                                                       
prices were often set in these situations, he was unsure how                                                                    
that minimum price was established. Therefore, he saw both                                                                      
sides of the issue.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Tape: SFC - 00 #50, Side B    9:50 AM                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green stated that the current statute defined fair                                                                      
market value as "the price at which a willing seller and a                                                                      
willing buyer will trade." She did not see any mention of                                                                       
appraisals in the definition section.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson then concluded that the willing price                                                                        
could not be lower than 70 percent of the fair market value.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell clarified that the division testified that                                                                     
the 70 percent provision was never used.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler stated that in the years of his and Mr. Mylius'                                                                    
service, the provision had not been utilized.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor asserted that state-owned land has been                                                                          
sitting fallow for 40 years because the department had been                                                                     
"sitting on it, refusing to sell it." He spoke to the                                                                           
advantages of allowing Alaskans to purchase the land, to use                                                                    
it and allow a borough to collect property taxes. He                                                                            
stressed, "anyway you can go about taking the land from                                                                         
these bureaucratic barons at the Department of Natural                                                                          
Resources and providing an opportunity for Alaskans to own                                                                      
it - we ought to be falling all over ourselves to give this                                                                     
land away." He admonished that this legislature could also                                                                      
do nothing just as all other legislatures had done since                                                                        
statehood and then complain because there was no economic                                                                       
diversification.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor continued lamenting that he found the                                                                            
department's entire discussion defending the fiscal note                                                                        
offensive. He stated that 50,000 acres of land was already                                                                      
surveyed and appraised and could be sold immediately without                                                                    
costing an additional $90,000.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
A roll call was taken on the motion.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
IN FAVOR: Senator Wilken, Senator P. Kelly, and Co-Chair                                                                        
Parnell                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
OPPOSED: Senator Leman, Senator Adams, Senator Green,                                                                           
Senator Donley, and Co-Chair Torgerson                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ABSENT: Senator Phillips                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
The motion FAILED (3-5-1)                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Amendment #4: This conceptual amendment deletes, "on the                                                                        
Internet" and inserts "within the state" after "advertised"                                                                     
on page 3 line 15. The amended sentence reads as follows.                                                                       
"Land offered for disposal under this section but not                                                                           
disposed of may be advertised within the state and offered                                                                      
at sealed-bid auction in accordance with department                                                                             
regulation."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly moved for adoption and spoke to his concern                                                                    
about "billions of eyes" looking over the available land for                                                                    
sale in Alaska. He did not want those people to own land,                                                                       
saying they could be an impediment to development. He                                                                           
lamented about environmental organizations purchasing land                                                                      
in other states and the subsequent constituent group whose                                                                      
desire is to stop development and to stop other landowners                                                                      
from enjoying their own land.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson suggested removing the entire sentence                                                                       
unless it was Senator P. Kelly's intent to limit all                                                                            
advertising to within the state.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler affirmed that although the department already                                                                      
does advertise within the state, it could do a better job.                                                                      
He stated that state-owned land sales are not advertised                                                                        
outside of Alaska.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly amended his amendment to delete the entire                                                                     
sentence on page 3 lines 14 through 16 that read, "Land                                                                         
offered for disposal under this section but not disposed of                                                                     
may be advertised on the Internet and offered at sealed-bid                                                                     
auction in accordance with department regulation."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green wondered if Internet advertising could be                                                                         
controlled to only reach those potential buyers inside the                                                                      
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson understood that any web site could be                                                                        
accessed from any computer anywhere in the world.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler corrected his earlier statement saying that the                                                                    
department currently does publish its land disposal brochure                                                                    
on the Internet through the Department of Natural Resources                                                                     
web page. He noted that state-owned land is not actually                                                                        
sold via the Internet.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson surmised that was the practice that                                                                          
Senator P. Kelly was attempting to prohibit.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly affirmed.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor stated that three or four years ago the                                                                          
department advertised and offered parcels for sale over the                                                                     
Internet. He said this practice was controversial because                                                                       
parties outside the state were bidding against Alaskans for                                                                     
this land. He told of one situation where interested buyers                                                                     
from Juneau were outbid by a group of doctors from                                                                              
California. As a result, he said the law was changed to                                                                         
require that land sales first be offered to Alaskan                                                                             
residents. This new law stipulated that the land could not                                                                      
be offered Internet or otherwise advertised outside the                                                                         
state until Alaskans were given a chance to bid. He                                                                             
emphasized he wanted Alaskans to have a "first shot" at the                                                                     
land.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
When asked by Senator Donley if he supported the amendment,                                                                     
Senator Taylor commented that he did not think the amendment                                                                    
would have much of an affect. He thought that the greater                                                                       
number of potential buyers the department could reach the                                                                       
better chance of receiving fair market value for the                                                                            
parcels. So long as Alaskans were given the first                                                                               
opportunity to buy parcels and the did not participate, he                                                                      
thought the Internet was a good marketing tool and should be                                                                    
utilized to sell the state-owned land.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly thought there would be more land available                                                                     
for sale than could be sold to Alaskans. He did not think                                                                       
the demand was as great as Senator Taylor attested and that                                                                     
Alaskans would only want to purchase a certain amount of                                                                        
land.  Senator P. Kelly spoke of other ways Alaskans can buy                                                                    
land such as from Native corporations and organizations,                                                                        
boroughs, and also privately held parcels. He stressed that                                                                     
the state cannot stop Outside purchasers from "locking up"                                                                      
Alaskan land but he but did not want to make it easier for                                                                      
them.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green referred to the five-year plan or schedule for                                                                    
the land disbursal program and asked if this meant there                                                                        
would be a five-year lag before the land is sold or a five-                                                                     
year lag before the parcels could be offered for sale on the                                                                    
Internet.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler responded that was not correct and that the                                                                        
five-year plan was only to notify the public of what                                                                            
offerings were forthcoming. He stated this was to ensure a                                                                      
stable land disposal process and so the public could                                                                            
anticipate what lands were actually being offered.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
A roll call was taken on the motion.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
IN FAVOR: Senator Adams, Senator Wilken, Senator P. Kelly,                                                                      
Senator Donley, Co-Chair Parnell, and Co-Chair Torgerson                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
OPPOSED: Senator Green, Senator Leman,                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ABSENT: Senator Phillips                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
The motion PASSED (6-2-1)                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Amendment #5: This conceptual amendment inserts, "70 percent                                                                    
of" on page three line 17 of the bill. The sentence then                                                                        
reads, "Land may not be disposed of under this section for                                                                      
less than 70 percent of the appraised fair market value."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken moved for adoption saying he wanted to                                                                           
eliminate the conflict between Sections 4 and 8.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler stated he thought this change would make the                                                                       
language more consistent.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green reviewed AS 38.04.020, to which this amendment                                                                    
applied, and asked if the land disposal bank referenced was                                                                     
different from the auction sales in AS 38.05.055, or Section                                                                    
8.                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler explained the land disposal bank is the pool of                                                                    
land from which parcels are offered and that the method used                                                                    
to offer the land was either auction, lottery or in some                                                                        
cases, homestead. He interpreted "land may not be offered                                                                       
from the land disposal bank" does not apply to the method in                                                                    
which the land was disbursed.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green asked if of any of the disposal methods                                                                           
required a full appraisal.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler replied that all parcels require an appraisal                                                                      
with the exception of the land covered by the 70-percent                                                                        
language or the sweat equity program. He noted that the                                                                         
existing 70-percent language was contained in the statute                                                                       
governing auctions and that the lottery statutes do not                                                                         
include this language.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Green told the Committee about discussions held in                                                                      
the legislature four years prior about the unintended                                                                           
consequences of many actions taken with the previous land                                                                       
disposal legislation. She stated that she would not object                                                                      
to the amendment, but that she would not support it either                                                                      
without further review.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
There was no objection and the amendment was ADOPTED.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams addressed the fiscal note from the Department                                                                     
of Natural Resources. He surmised that if this bill passed,                                                                     
$15 million would have to be added to the department's                                                                          
budget over the next two years to operate the program. He                                                                       
made a suggestion of setting aside $15,787,000 in the                                                                           
Constitutional Budget Reserve (CBR) fund through the fiscal                                                                     
note to eliminate the concern about this program being an                                                                       
unfunded mandate. He qualified that he did not support this                                                                     
deposit, but felt it should be considered.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson stated that such a deposit into the CBR                                                                      
would not solve the concerns because Mr. Loeffler would then                                                                    
complain that the program was an unfunded mandate for the                                                                       
following years of FY 06, FY 07 and so forth. Co-Chair                                                                          
Torgerson stressed that it was unfair to claim that without                                                                     
designated program receipts, a program was an unfunded                                                                          
mandate.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Wilken noted language on page two line eight and                                                                        
expressed concern there was no length of terms for the land                                                                     
disposal advisory committee. He suggested five-year terms of                                                                    
service.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Torgerson responded that every time the Speaker of                                                                     
the House of Representatives or the President of the Senate                                                                     
positions changed, they could chose different people to                                                                         
serve in the positions held by appointees of the                                                                                
legislature. The seats that are appointed by the governor                                                                       
would be up for review subject to the turnover of the                                                                           
governor as well, he added.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor commented on the fiscal note charging that                                                                       
the department severely overstated the expenditures and that                                                                    
the revenues generated were understated. He referred to the                                                                     
stipulation on page five of the bill that requires the                                                                          
commissioner to recover the appraisal or survey costs.                                                                          
Therefore, he stated that the 50,000 acres of land that was                                                                     
already surveyed or appraised would generate revenue as soon                                                                    
as it was sold because the buyer would be required to                                                                           
reimburse the department. He noted that this legislation                                                                        
directs the department to sell this land, which would                                                                           
recover the entire previous investment made by the state. He                                                                    
admonished the department, who "for the price of $9 million                                                                     
they're willing to take up another 25,000 acres" of land                                                                        
that potential buyers would stake on their own.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator Adams noted the sponsor statement suggested a zero                                                                      
fiscal note and to have the program operate under the                                                                           
recovered revenue as Senator Taylor stated above.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Taylor stated he would prefer that, "but                                                                                
unfortunately, if we don't pay the blackmail that they want,                                                                    
this thing's going to get vetoed. It will probably get                                                                          
vetoed anyhow, but if we don't come up with the right amount                                                                    
of money for these bureaucrats, they will refuse to move any                                                                    
piece of land."  He admitted that there would be some                                                                           
additional cost but that it was not nearly what the                                                                             
department was projecting.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler answered Senator P. Kelly's question saying the                                                                    
department has a backlog of 50,000 acres of potential                                                                           
reoffers because it did not have the funding to sell. He                                                                        
stated that the requested $9 million was not just to sell                                                                       
this land but for 20,000 acres of remote parcels and 5,000                                                                      
acres of new surveyed lands as well.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly asked how long the 50,000 had been                                                                             
available for disposal.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Loeffler answered since 1980.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly then asked at any given time how much land                                                                     
was available for purchase.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler replied that each year the department offered                                                                      
between 100-150 parcels but hoped to offer the entire 50,000                                                                    
land bank over the next two years through this legislation.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly wanted to know how much of that land was                                                                       
actually sold.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Loeffler said about half was sold and clarified that                                                                        
those 100-150 parcels were typically the highest-grade                                                                          
parcels. He estimated that approximately 500 of the 5,000                                                                       
parcels would be sold during this large offering.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator P. Kelly didn't think the land offering would                                                                           
generate the anticipated demand. He argued that if a person                                                                     
were asked if they wanted some land, the answer would be                                                                        
yes. However, the demand is measured by the number of people                                                                    
who actually but these parcels at fair market value. He                                                                         
noted land is currently on the market from other offerings                                                                      
such as municipalities and private parties. He was concerned                                                                    
what would happen to the marketability of the privately held                                                                    
land in the case of a large offering of state-owned land.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Parnell offered a motion to report from Committee,                                                                     
1-LS0071\W as amended with individual recommendations and a                                                                     
$9,447,000 fiscal note from the Department of Natural                                                                           
Resources. There was no objection and the bill MOVED FROM                                                                       
COMMITTEE.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects